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Originally Posted by Darth_Bill
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Originally Posted by ML
Of course these men are theologians and as such are free to speculate as long as they do not slip into teaching heresy,
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Oh, I think these men are free to slip into teaching heresy anytime they want to. They might be wrong and excommunicated but they can do it. |
Yeah - you know what I meant.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Bill
And I'm not sure this is speculation without foundation.
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Never said it was without foundation. Just that it is a position held in isolation from the vast majority. Not that that is a bad thing - I just didn't want anyone to think this was an official conclusion and admission by the Catholic Church itself.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Bill
At least, they have as much, if not more documented foundation than the RCC has counter claims.
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I think that would take a long time to prove, as there is a lot of foundation within Catholic Apologetics and Church history to support this idea - enough to convince even leading Protestant historians.
In fact the idea that Bishops today cannot trace their ordination back through to an Apostle is just plain wrong. I do not know of a single Catholic Priest who could not do it for you personally.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Bill
The documents stated do not support apostolic ordination of bishops. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but the earliest documents don't support that position.
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I think they do, in fact I can think of one right off the top of my head -
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Bill
I frankly think apostles did ordain bishops. My theological problem is that it doesn't mean bishops could ordain bishops. That is where they went astray.
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Irenaeus would disagree with you and with the claims of these men, as he said - "the Tradition of the Apostles has been manifested to the universal world in the whole Church, and we can enumerate those who have been constituted bishops and successors of the Apostles up to us"
Against Heresies, 3, 3, 1 Page 7,848)