Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination)

[Darth_Bill]

>the Bible says that God is omniscient

OF the past, present, or future? There are various levels. Like I said in my original post, this idea puts a huge amount of suffering right on God's doorstep.

[Don]

ML,

Why do I in my finite mind need to worry about the answer to this question? I never even remotely claimed to be able to answer any possible question.

The Bible teaches both, I accept both.

So I don't worry about it. Perhaps the question does not make sense but I do not see why it does not make sense, as I am finite. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something from the Bible; in that case I believe God will know I am acting in faith and will treat me like Abraham. Perhaps there is an answer, but I simply do not see it as I am finite.

These kinds of questions are sometimes used by atheists to try to disprove the existence of God via some kind of logical deduction. But having been confronted by God, His existence (and my acceptance of it) trumps any type of logical proof that He does not exist.

Using Physics, scientists one proved that the sun could not be very old, until they discovered nuclear energy. Just before the Wright brothers took off, I heard somewhere that someone proved it could not be done, as he had neglected to factor in use of the Bernoulli principle. I agree these "proofs" are not the same, but they illustrate the idea.

Don

[HisGirl]

Originally Posted by michael_legna

How do you explain our free will then? I am interested in how you resolve the issue, that if God already knows what we are going to do, how is it that we are free to do anything but that? It seems to me that either we are not truly free or God doesn't know what we are going to do. How do you see it?

We can't resolve it because it's a mystery only God has an answer to and God does chose. How does our free will come into it? Only God knows. To say our free will is the ultimate arbitrator of our free will, it makes God a servant to what we want, the bible never say's that. Quite the opposite, we are servants to the living God. If you say we have all the rights to choose then explain how does the Sovereignty of God fit into this? Free will as you are defining it, makes everything relative to us and that is a real New Age idea. We are not the captains of our own destiny.

(New International Version)
Romans 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Eph. 1:5
5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—"

Eph. 1:11
"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,"

emphesis mine

I put my trust in Him. There is nothing to resolve.

[HisGirl]

Looking strickly at Scripture it states clearly that God is in control regardless of what we think.

NIV
Rom. 9:11-21
"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

We are made for God's purposes, for His good pleasure.

[Darth_Bill]

>I put my trust in Him. There is nothing to resolve.

I think that depends on what strength you put to those verses. Again, if we are predestined to a great degree, then God is purposefully damning a whole lot of his children, not to mention the respecter of persons he becomes if he uses irresistable grace.

My use of "predestined" isn't very strong. I don't see how a just God could operate using a strong version of it. I think he gave us promises, that if we lived up to our potential, x and y would happen to us.

I would think that the entire purpose of life and the atonement would be in question if everything is already determined. Then God is just a mean guy, sending us all to suffer so. Needless to say, why even preach the gospel, since it really is already determined.

>Looking strickly at Scripture it states clearly that God is in control regardless of what we think.

I don't think that is really the question.


>His existence (and my acceptance of it) trumps any type of logical proof that He does not exist.

The rest of us mortals just have to work off faith.

[HisGirl]

Originally Posted by Darth_Bill

Not sure if this is truly the case. While he might perceive time differently, it doesn't mean he is outside of it. If our view of eternity is truly based on our view, then perhaps we should rethink God's attributes in those terms. For example, while God is eternal, being inside of time only might mean eternal is only relative to us, then God might not have that attribute.

For example, we live much longer than bacteria in a petre dish. To them, we are eternal, as we live thousands, if not millions of their lifetimes. See where I'm going?

Actually, then living from eternity to eternity might have meaning.

NIV
Ps. 90:4
"For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

2Pet.3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day."

[HisGirl]

DB, Read Roman's 9, it is clear.

[Darth_Bill]

Originally Posted by HisGirl

NIV
Ps. 90:4
"For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

2Pet.3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day."

Yep, and it doesn't state that he is outside of time, just that he is very aware. It really doesn't speak to the whole surprised thing because this still references time passage, but a different perception of it.

>DB, Read Roman's 9, it is clear.

In what regard? I read it....and...?

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by Don

Why do I in my finite mind need to worry about the answer to this question? I never even remotely claimed to be able to answer any possible question.

Why? Because doctrine is built on doctrine and how you understand apparently conflicting verses in the Bible determines how you understand other parts of the word of God.

For example there are those who believe that hell is not eternal and they have some verses they point to that support this. But when asked to explain what is meant when the Bible says that the torment will be eternal and the worm never dies, etc. They pretty much answer the same way as you did, that they do not need to resolve these difficulties that I have because they don't have them. I am sorry for me that does not wash, because when they later develop doctrine based on the verses whose literal meaning they dismiss it leads to more and more errors.

In the above example that leads to a misunderstanding of God's judgment and mercy, a misunderstanding of the path of history in the end times and other errors all because they deny hell being eternal. In the question we are considering this is going to affect doctrines of sin and repentance because we either misunderstand God's knowledge and will or because we minimize our free will.

That is why we need to worry about an answer to this question. I agree with you that God will judge us on our most sincere effort to follow Him as best we understand Him, but to me it doesn't seem that not even trying to understand Him would qualify. This isn't an issue of how many angels can dance on the ehad of a pin. This issue underlies many other doctrines and thus a wrong understanding can lead us to accept or develop all kinds of wrong thinking.

[Don]

Go ahead and worry about an answer to this question, I cannot stop you.

A concern I have is that I have seen some negative things happen due to an over-emphasis of either God's omniscience or man's free will.

This is somewhat like the Physics question on whether light is a wave or a particle, for me the answer is both. How can it be both, you ask? I am not sure, as I never claimed to understand all of reality. But you claim I must answer the question on how it can be both. And I say, why do I have to answer the question. It can be wisdom to simply admit one does not know, rather than make up an answer.

If one says God is omniscient and reduces the idea of man's free will, then I see this becoming an excuse for man to not be responsible, at least for some.

If one says man is free and therefore no one will know what I will choose, then this can reduce the idea of God being omniscient.

In my understanding, a Greek thinker will fret and stew, but a Hebrew thinker just accepts both truths and moves on. I choose not to fret and stew on this and just move on.

Don