Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination)

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by Don

This is somewhat like the Physics question on whether light is a wave or a particle, for me the answer is both. How can it be both, you ask? I am not sure, as I never claimed to understand all of reality. But you claim I must answer the question on how it can be both. And I say, why do I have to answer the question?

The reason you have to answer the question is the same reason Physics worked so hard so it could answer the question. Knowledge builds on knowledge.

Without an understanding of how light (and mass for that matter) can be both a wave and particle Physics could never have developed tunneling diodes and thus half of the electronics and computer work today might never have been developed. With an incorrect understanding of this idea we would have taken wrong approaches to discovering the truth and would have developed wrong theories. Physics would have gotten further and further from the truth.

In theology without a proper understanding of the hard ideas you can develop wrong doctrines over the simple ideas. Doctrines end up getting further and further away from the truth because of this.

[trishs500]

Well, hey ya'll, it's been a while since i have posted anything here. I was reading through everyones posts and it struck me that the focus seems to be on one attribute of God and not the whole of God. Scripture says we are to worship the ONE TRUE GOD. All of God's attributes are One in nature, essence, etc. They all are together working together. So when a person discusses one attribute they must always see it in light of the others. The problem here is that God has attributes i am sure that He has not revealed to us but are hidden. We only know what He has revealed.

One thing I do know is along with the omni's there is sovereignty meaning control.
There are numerous verses asking who can stay My hand? Who are my counselors? Who knows the mind of God? These verses show that God is sovereign and if He were not and was "surprised" by anything, then one could say every promise made in scripture is void. Because God's actions would be dependent on the actions of man and that is not the God i see in scripture. I am dependent on Him, He is not dependent on me and my choices. If He were then i would be God and He would not. I would be sovereign and He would not be.

Now in light of this we need to first define free will or as i call it free agency.
God created adam and eve, with desires. And we are free to choose what we desire. Adam and Eve had free choice, they had the desire for flesh and the desire for God. They made a choice of flesh and as such plunged all men into spiritual death. In other words as God says right before noah in genesis, "Every intention (also translated desire) of the heart of man is evil continually". In proverbs it states "The heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked, who can understand it" What does this mean? Paul says we are slaves to sin, Jesus said sin comes from the heart. Our hearts are slaves to our evil desires. So let's look at slaves, they are free to walk around and make choices, but they are not autonomous, they answer to someone.

Autonomous:

2. Existing as an independent entity;
3. Of persons; free from external control and constraint in e.g. action and judgment.

We are influenced daily from the externals, we make choices based on externals. If it is cold outside, we put on a coat. It was our free will to do so, but that choice was based on an external condition. We were free to choose not to put the coat on. We are also not free from constraint for scripture teaches that God does constrain the wicked. He does hold them back from being as wicked as they could possibly be. So we are certainly not autonomous.

But we have freedom of choice based on external elements and internal desires.

The fact is in a fallen state man's desire for the flesh is stronger than the desire to follow God. And as such man has still made a free choice. We are told in scripture that there is light in every man. The problem is because of the fallen state the desire for wickedness is stronger, so that is what we choose and we are responsible for that. God in His mercy chooses to internally put a desire for Him (again back to autonomy) in certain individuals for whatever purpose which scripture says is HIS GLORY and HIS ALONE. That is grace, that is mercy. I have heard some say that God forces ppl to choose Him, i wouldn't want to serve a God like that. To me that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Why on earth would i complain about God saving me from hell and helping me to choose Him. Would i rather spend eternity in hell than for God to show me mercy and draw me to Himself so that i could spend eternity in incomprehensible joy.

Analogy: If someone came up to you and pointed a gun at your temple and said Give me your money or your life! What would you choose? You going to choose to give up your life just because the person is forcing you?

The fact is God does not force, but graces some with a desire and once that desire is there a person will see, it doesn't mean the other desire of flesh is not there, there is still a struggle but in the end we choose Him.

Someone sent me a paper on why the doctrine i hold to was not correct. This paper was 12 documents. One document was on Human Choice and was 19 pages.
Another was on the nature of God and was one small paragraph. I found that to be a sad and grievous thing. I hope you can see why. I think ppl can get so caught up on flesh and the right to choose and miss the boat and not know God at all. It saddens me that this is so because first and foremost in the mind of God is His glory and who better knows what brings glory to God than God Himself. With that i will get off my soapbox. LOL

Thank you for the patience.

Trish

[Don]

Thanks Trish.

ML,

I do not have to do anything, regardless of your claims that I do. I am willing to make mistakes and be corrected. I am willing to do the best I know how and trust God for the rest. Most of all, I do not have to adopt a Greek-thinking mindset in trying to understand the Bible written by Hebrew-thinkers, no matter how much you think I must.

I think this was a reason for the loss of truth as early as the 2nd century in the church, as words and concepts and phrases and what they meant to Hebrew thinkers were replaced by what they meant to Greek thinkers.

So this is a trap I want to run away from, not towards. If you want to run towards it, I have done what I could by my example to warn you.

Don

[trishs500]

Hm, trying to figure out what it was i said that was greek thinking. I posted what scripture says about man in english and about God in english. Sorry for any confusion. Since all of scripture is about the nature of God i would think that is an important element in any interpretation of a passage, but that is just my opinion. Anyway, was not trying to imply anyone had to believe what i say, i think scripture speaks for itself.

[Don]

Trish,

I was replying to Michael Legna or ML as a abbreviation, not you.

I thanked you for your comments before that as I thought they were useful.

Don

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by Don

I do not have to do anything, regardless of your claims that I do.

I never said you HAD to do anything - you asked why you SHOULD do something and I gave you a reasons why. If you don't want to, and you want to take this issue on faith by all means do so. I was just pointing out the risk you run by not reconciling this issue in that further doctrinal development you do or accept runs greater risk of being in error since it is built on a lack of understanding. But you don't even have to worry about that if you don't want to, you can take that on faith as well.

Originally Posted by Don

Most of all, I do not have to adopt a Greek-thinking mindset in trying to understand the Bible written by Hebrew-thinkers, no matter how much you think I must.

I never said you MUST do anything. I just pointed out the inconsistency of failing to resolve an issue which arises based on logical analysis and then resorting to that same logical analysis for the further development of doctrine. Now you could deny that you use this logical analysis for the development of doctrine but you and I would both know that is not possible for anyone living in the modern world.

Originally Posted by Don

I think this was a reason for the loss of truth as early as the 2nd century in the church, as words and concepts and phrases and what they meant to Hebrew thinkers were replaced by what they meant to Greek thinkers.

So this is a trap I want to run away from, not towards. If you want to run towards it, I have done what I could by my example to warn you.

If it is a trap it is one built right into our language and the meaning of the terms we use and think in, so it is not one you can run away from - at least not successfully.

I choose not to run away from it but to face it hoping to leanr better what God wants of us.

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by trishs500

These verses show that God is sovereign and if He were not and was "surprised" by anything, then one could say every promise made in scripture is void.

That all depends on how you define sovereignty. God can be sovereign and limit Himself.

Originally Posted by trishs500

I have heard some say that God forces ppl to choose Him, i wouldn't want to serve a God like that. To me that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Why on earth would i complain about God saving me from hell and helping me to choose Him.

I agree one should not complain but that does not support the idea that God forces us to choose Him because there is another reason why we should not beleive such a doctrine. God doesn't force us to choose Him, as that would me He was forcing us to love Him and a forced love is not true love. That is why God does not force us to love Him and why He is surprised when we do choose to love Him.

Originally Posted by trishs500

Analogy: If someone came up to you and pointed a gun at your temple and said Give me your money or your life! What would you choose? You going to choose to give up your life just because the person is forcing you?

But your analogy is flawed because the person with the gun is applying limited force, thus they are not removing your free will. God's knowing all things would be unlimited force, so it would be removing our free will.

Originally Posted by trishs500

The fact is God does not force, but graces some with a desire and once that desire is there a person will see, it doesn't mean the other desire of flesh is not there, there is still a struggle but in the end we choose Him.

If the struggle is still there, but God does know how it comes out, then the struggle isn't really there, as no matter whether we struggle or not the out come is the same. So God does force the out coume by His knowling all things, and therefore His not being surprised removes our free will.

Originally Posted by Trishs500

Someone sent me a paper on why the doctrine i hold to was not correct. This paper was 12 documents. One document was on Human Choice and was 19 pages. Another was on the nature of God and was one small paragraph. I found that to be a sad and grievous thing. I hope you can see why.

If you want to see an analysis of this issue including a huge section on the nature of God you have only to read the Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas.

You can find it here:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/

the section on the nature of God starts here

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1.htm

and the sections on God's omniscience, free will and predestination are specifically here:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/101400.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/108300.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102300.htm

Originally Posted by Trishs500

I think ppl can get so caught up on flesh and the right to choose and miss the boat and not know God at all. It saddens me that this is so because first and foremost in the mind of God is His glory and who better knows what brings glory to God than God Himself.

The focus here is not on the flesh but on the wonderful gift God has given us - that of a free will. In my mind if He willingly restricted His infinite knowledge so we could have a truly free will, then it is a marvelous gift and we ought to very appreciative of it and it should be forefront in our thoughts on Him and His glory.

[Don]

I do not have to try to logically analyse everything in order to use logic. I do not even have to try to logically analyse some specific something, in order to use logic. I do not have to understand how a car works in detail in order to use a car. I rely on a mechanic to fix my car and even change my oil. I do not need to try to understand everything in order to understand something. I do not need to understand some specific thing, in order to understand something else. This attitude you show ML is just waaaaaaaaaay too medieval scholastic for me.

I do not worry too much about if I will make mistakes, as I know I WILL make mistakes, but my God promises to correct me and give me light for my feet, which is all I need.

Don

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by Don

I do not have to try to logically analyse everything in order to use logic.
Don

No - only to be consistent.

[Darth_Bill]

>I do not have to try to logically analyse everything in order to use logic.

OK, a black hole opened up and sucked away all that I thought I knew.

>This attitude you show ML is just waaaaaaaaaay too medieval scholastic for me.

I don't believe in being saved in ignorance. At some point, we need to know these things. God doesn't want a bunch of people around who just don't get it.

>I do not worry too much about if I will make mistakes, as I know I WILL make mistakes, but my God promises to correct me and give me light for my feet, which is all I need.

Maybe he's trying to.