Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) - Page 9 - ChristiansOnline.CC

Don · 03-11-2006, 05:08 PM

On Alex VI, I can forgive someone lots of times, this means the debt is clear, I will not seek payback. We should forgive regardless of what the other person does or does not do.

This is entirely different from doing the Mat 18 process, this is holding someone accountable, it should NOT be seeking payback, see above. You yourself already know that faith is demonstrated by one's acts. Is one seeking righteousness or not? False cheap grace is thinking I can do anything and keep getting away with it. But working the redemptive process, even if one slips up, at least shows an attempt.

On my saying "obey the Bible", Jesus told Jews, "Obey Moses" by which he meant "Obey the Pentateuch, which Moses wrote via God's inspiration." Now we have a fuller revelation, so as a simplistic first pass analogous statement, it is "Obey the Bible", more specifically, obey the Bible as it applies to you. Notice that in my understanding Jesus did NOT say, "Obey Moses as taught by the Pharisees" or "Obey Moses as taught by the Saduccees", he just said "Obey Moses."

Don

Don · 03-11-2006, 05:41 PM

HCSB Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples:
Mat 23:2"The scribes and the Pharisees are seated in the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3Therefore do whatever they tell you and observe it. But don't do what they do, because they don't practice what they teach.

Modified per Shem Tov Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples:
Mat 23:2"The scribes and the Pharisees are seated in the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3Therefore do whatever he (Moses) tells you and observe it. But don't do what they (Pharisees) do, because they don't practice what they teach.

It is a change from "they" to "he" in verse 3.

Jesus thoughout the gospels, while not opposed to tradition per se, opposed tradition that negated Scripture and argued repeatedly with the Pharisees on this. So Mat 23:2 in the Greek reading is a puzzle as it is inconsistent with the rest of Jesus' teachings.

As the Pharisees were sinners, they did not even practise what they taught, which was stuff in addition to the written Torah, and which was called the Oral Torah. The Pharisees were widely seen by other Jews as the most righteous of the Jews groups, this is one reason why Jesus keeps hammering away that they are not righteous at all. In terms of theology, they were the closest to Jesus, believing the resurrection; but because they thought they had "it" when they really did not, Jesus took them to task.

Don

michael_legna · 03-11-2006, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don

On Alex VI, I can forgive someone lots of times, this means the debt is clear, I will not seek payback. We should forgive regardless of what the other person does or does not do.

This is entirely different from doing the Mat 18 process, this is holding someone accountable, it should NOT be seeking payback, see above. You yourself already know that faith is demonstrated by one's acts. Is one seeking righteousness or not? False cheap grace is thinking I can do anything and keep getting away with it. But working the redemptive process, even if one slips up, at least shows an attempt.

And my point is you don't know what attempt Pope Alexander VI made or did not make. You have no way to judge either way and yet you do judge!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don

On my saying "obey the Bible", Jesus told Jews, "Obey Moses" by which he meant "Obey the Pentateuch, which Moses wrote via God's inspiration." Now we have a fuller revelation, so as a simplistic first pass analogous statement, it is "Obey the Bible", more specifically, obey the Bible as it applies to you. Notice that in my understanding Jesus did NOT say, "Obey Moses as taught by the Pharisees" or "Obey Moses as taught by the Saduccees", he just said "Obey Moses."

Ok I can accept that as a simplistic first pass analogy.

michael_legna · 03-11-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don

It is a change from "they" to "he" in verse 3.

Jesus thoughout the gospels, while not opposed to tradition per se, opposed tradition that negated Scripture and argued repeatedly with the Pharisees on this. So Mat 23:2 in the Greek reading is a puzzle as it is inconsistent with the rest of Jesus' teachings.

As the Pharisees were sinners, they did not even practise what they taught, which was stuff in addition to the written Torah, and which was called the Oral Torah. The Pharisees were widely seen by other Jews as the most righteous of the Jews groups, this is one reason why Jesus keeps hammering away that they are not righteous at all. In terms of theology, they were the closest to Jesus, believing the resurrection; but because they thought they had "it" when they really did not, Jesus took them to task.

This is just way to similar to what the Jesus Seminar does to suite me. They have a doctrine and then interpret or even change scripture to say what they want it to. Which is of course the danger of taking the historical-grammatical approach too far. Like any tool if it is the only one you use no matter what the task you end up using the wrong tool for something.

In this specific case it just seems to be more eisigesis then exegesis.

Don · 03-11-2006, 08:00 PM

I do not know much about the Jesus seminar, but I hear some of them toss out essentially all of Jesus' sayings as not authentic. And somehow they vote(?) about what sayings are real, partially real, or later additions. I come from the other end of the spectrum, and assume all are real and then address the puzzles.

In this case there is SOME evidence of a Hebrew Matthew (2 ECF) of which 1 says the translation to Greek was "as best they could" and some potentially residual evidence (2 Shem Tov manuscripts). I do recommend the book by Nehemia Gordon, he is one of the official translators of the DSS.

Don

michael_legna · 03-11-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don

I do recommend the book by Nehemia Gordon, he is one of the official translators of the DSS.

From what little I have been able to find on the Internet about him and the Michael Rood who is associated with this work, they tend to label things associated with Christianity as pagan and resist refering to Jesus as Christ.

Here is a website which address the concerns some Christians have with this project:

http://www.seekgod.ca/roodnewsflash.htm

Admittedly their opinions are only one side of the argument. But what I did find particularly interesting was the comparison of verses as translated from the Shem Tov Matthew and the KJV Matthew. If this is accurate I would not give this research any creedance at all.

Don · 03-11-2006, 09:19 PM

Nehemia Gordon is a Karaite Jew and does not believe Jesus was Messiah.
Michael Rood does believe Jesus was Messiah.

YESHU is an acronym used by the rabbis to refer to Yeshua/Jesus, but to deny he was who he said he was. Given that the text was a copy of a copy, etc. all the anti-Jesus stuff can be explained as changes by Jews. The things that cannot be explained are the *changes* that go in the other direction. Those *changes* MIGHT be originals.

If you really want to study this, you need to get the text of the Hebrew Matthew book by Howard and the book by Nehemia Gordon. I have both. If not, not.

The seekgod website is a very negative site IMO. This can be useful, but one needs to know that they see their mission as knocking a LOT of things, like the Narnia movie, and they use selective quotes out of context. This is not to say that what they are saying is wrong or right, one needs to see that they see themselves as saying all these things are not "pure" so discard. I read them sometimes, but sparingly. I think they totally misunderstand the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research, for example.

Don

03-11-2006, 05:08 PM	#81 (permalink)
Don Established Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Manassas, VA, USA Posts: 6,052	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) On Alex VI, I can forgive someone lots of times, this means the debt is clear, I will not seek payback. We should forgive regardless of what the other person does or does not do. This is entirely different from doing the Mat 18 process, this is holding someone accountable, it should NOT be seeking payback, see above. You yourself already know that faith is demonstrated by one's acts. Is one seeking righteousness or not? False cheap grace is thinking I can do anything and keep getting away with it. But working the redemptive process, even if one slips up, at least shows an attempt. On my saying "obey the Bible", Jesus told Jews, "Obey Moses" by which he meant "Obey the Pentateuch, which Moses wrote via God's inspiration." Now we have a fuller revelation, so as a simplistic first pass analogous statement, it is "Obey the Bible", more specifically, obey the Bible as it applies to you. Notice that in my understanding Jesus did NOT say, "Obey Moses as taught by the Pharisees" or "Obey Moses as taught by the Saduccees", he just said "Obey Moses." Don __________________ Don, a charismatic Biblical egalitarian studying Hebrew roots of Christianity and 1st century context of the Bible. My growth work: my lack of trust due to fear and that love is more important than being right. Last edited by Don; 03-11-2006 at 05:14 PM.

03-11-2006, 05:41 PM	#82 (permalink)
Don Established Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Manassas, VA, USA Posts: 6,052	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) HCSB Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: Mat 23:2"The scribes and the Pharisees are seated in the chair of Moses. Mat 23:3Therefore do whatever they tell you and observe it. But don't do what they do, because they don't practice what they teach. Modified per Shem Tov Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: Mat 23:2"The scribes and the Pharisees are seated in the chair of Moses. Mat 23:3Therefore do whatever he (Moses) tells you and observe it. But don't do what they (Pharisees) do, because they don't practice what they teach. It is a change from "they" to "he" in verse 3. Jesus thoughout the gospels, while not opposed to tradition per se, opposed tradition that negated Scripture and argued repeatedly with the Pharisees on this. So Mat 23:2 in the Greek reading is a puzzle as it is inconsistent with the rest of Jesus' teachings. As the Pharisees were sinners, they did not even practise what they taught, which was stuff in addition to the written Torah, and which was called the Oral Torah. The Pharisees were widely seen by other Jews as the most righteous of the Jews groups, this is one reason why Jesus keeps hammering away that they are not righteous at all. In terms of theology, they were the closest to Jesus, believing the resurrection; but because they thought they had "it" when they really did not, Jesus took them to task. Don __________________ Don, a charismatic Biblical egalitarian studying Hebrew roots of Christianity and 1st century context of the Bible. My growth work: my lack of trust due to fear and that love is more important than being right.

03-11-2006, 08:00 PM	#85 (permalink)
Don Established Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Manassas, VA, USA Posts: 6,052	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) I do not know much about the Jesus seminar, but I hear some of them toss out essentially all of Jesus' sayings as not authentic. And somehow they vote(?) about what sayings are real, partially real, or later additions. I come from the other end of the spectrum, and assume all are real and then address the puzzles. In this case there is SOME evidence of a Hebrew Matthew (2 ECF) of which 1 says the translation to Greek was "as best they could" and some potentially residual evidence (2 Shem Tov manuscripts). I do recommend the book by Nehemia Gordon, he is one of the official translators of the DSS. Don __________________ Don, a charismatic Biblical egalitarian studying Hebrew roots of Christianity and 1st century context of the Bible. My growth work: my lack of trust due to fear and that love is more important than being right.

03-11-2006, 09:19 PM	#87 (permalink)
Don Established Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Manassas, VA, USA Posts: 6,052	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) Nehemia Gordon is a Karaite Jew and does not believe Jesus was Messiah. Michael Rood does believe Jesus was Messiah. YESHU is an acronym used by the rabbis to refer to Yeshua/Jesus, but to deny he was who he said he was. Given that the text was a copy of a copy, etc. all the anti-Jesus stuff can be explained as changes by Jews. The things that cannot be explained are the changes that go in the other direction. Those changes MIGHT be originals. If you really want to study this, you need to get the text of the Hebrew Matthew book by Howard and the book by Nehemia Gordon. I have both. If not, not. The seekgod website is a very negative site IMO. This can be useful, but one needs to know that they see their mission as knocking a LOT of things, like the Narnia movie, and they use selective quotes out of context. This is not to say that what they are saying is wrong or right, one needs to see that they see themselves as saying all these things are not "pure" so discard. I read them sometimes, but sparingly. I think they totally misunderstand the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research, for example. Don __________________ Don, a charismatic Biblical egalitarian studying Hebrew roots of Christianity and 1st century context of the Bible. My growth work: my lack of trust due to fear and that love is more important than being right.