Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) - ChristiansOnline.CC

theredpill · 01-10-2006, 06:20 AM

I've been fascinated by the never-ending debate among many regarding the issue of predestination and God's omni qualities of power, presence, and knowledge. So keeping that familiar debate in mind, the question i have is....can God ever be surprised?

By way of a caveat i should say that i am no master logician (i wish i was), so i can only self reference to a large degree of what SEEMS logical and reasonable to me.

This is my thesis: I contend that complete knowledge of everything, both what has been, what is, and what will be, by virtue of its totality of knowledge, excludes the capability of being surprised by anything.

Secondly i contend that 'surprise', as a momentary condition with which we as humans are all very familiar, is a necessary component and requisite quality in making a Being capable enjoying the fruit of another beings 'freedom of choice'.

Third i contend that God could not fully enjoy our alleged 'freedom of choice' to serve Him if all the while He knows that we either would or would not, owing to the plausible argument in my view that, God having already known what a person would choose cannot possibly be surprised that the individual would choose him, thereby removing any quality of surprise or delight, which i argue cannot coexist with all-knowledge.

I apologize if i havent framed my thesis in the most cogent and concise fashion. I will seek to illustrate each point of my thesis by way of illustrations, analogies and comparisons.

Point 1. It occurs to me that surprise, which i cannot help but see as invariably related to 'delight', is a by product of not knowing everything. Also that if one does know everything, their ability to be delighted in the sense of being surprised or pleasantly caught off guard, cannot exist.

For example. Say as a parent you give your young child a piece of paper and some crayons, they want to draw you a picture. You are in the kitchen or doing some housework when after some time has passed your child brings you a beautiful drawing or coloring. You notice how fine a picture it is and delight in their creation. You also could very well be surprised at what the picture consists of, because you didnt see what they were drawing while the work was in progress.

Now, lets say that instead of waiting till the picture was done, you checked in on your child from time to time, and then were able to see the work in progress, thus divesting the drawing of any mystery, since you had seen what it was shaping up to be. Then when the drawing is finished your child brings it to you, and you FEIGN surprise, or you do not, your choice....but all the same you can still legitimately DELIGHT in the beauty of the drawing, since one does not need to be surprised in order to delight in something.

But, can anyone genuinely say that they would prefer to be WITHOUT that quality of surprise if they could choose? Recall the moments in your life when someone you cared for deeply came from 'left field' and did something totally unexpected and wonderful for you, remember how your heart and soul leapt within you and thrilled with the revelation that someone had been plotting of ways to please you, while keeping it a secret until the unveiling. How different that experience would be if all the while you knew exactly what they were up to. In what condition would you prefer to enjoy that experience?

Point 2 and 3. Many Christians say the reason why God created beings with 'freedom of choice' is that he wanted to know that if his creatures loved him it would be because they CHOSE to do so. That argument implies that God wouldnt derive the same kind of enjoyment from the love of his creatures if it had been 'programmed' into them. In my view this implies quite heavily that the 'freedom of choice' or 'free will' contains within its nature or makeup an 'x factor' if you please...or rather a quality of uncertainty, at least as far as the creature is concerned. But, as far as God is concerned, if he already knows whether or not a creature will choose to love him, does that not affect the quality of delight he is capable of experiencing?

In other words....if you are courting a person of interest....and you love them, and you hope that they will reciprocate that love......if they finally do tell you they feel the same, there is rejoicing in the fact that they CHOSE to love you. If however you already knew when you met someone that they would either choose or not choose to love you, would there be any incentive at all in trying to WIN their love? You after all would already know what they were going to choose and it would be a complete waste of time in trying to convince them otherwise, at least as far as their choice is concerned. If there were other associated qualities of this experience that needed illustration thats another matter altogether, and ill get to that.

Ok, well, forgive my very flawed and imperfect verbalization of a theological quandary in which many are caught.

Frankly, many people cannot imagine true 'free will' coexisting with Gods foreknowledge.

Many apologists suggest that Gods foreknowledge doesnt keep us from choosing, it only means that he knows what we will choose. Try to wrap your mind around that.

Well, in part i can agree with that, owing to the fact that no matter how truly free we are to do whatever we wish....there are not in fact infinite choices available to us.

This is all i have for now, i have other thoughts, but ive already made this longer than i intended....and as well, this was written extemporaneously which may explain its disarray..i beg your indulgence and any comments, thank you

Don · 01-10-2006, 08:23 AM

I do not think God is surprised.

Don

michael_legna · 01-10-2006, 08:33 AM

What we have to add to these considerations is the following issue:

If God knows we are going to choose Him (because of His infinite foreknowledge) and we thus have limited choices within the scope of our free will, does that imply (as it seems to) that the love we feel for Him is also not freely given? The point being is - does such a thing as unfree love exist? Does it make any sense at all to speak of loving someone (in this case God) if we have no choice in the matter?

This is a knotty subject and I have no simple answers but I believe we love or do not love God freely, and thus it means that each of us could or could not, in the end, choose God or reject Him and if that means He is surprised and that somehow our freewill has limited His infinite foreknowledge then so be it. Any other approach is just a sham relationship and no love exists within it.

To look at it another way - what a wonderful gift (if we see free will as a gift) for God to choose to limit His own power (by choosing not to know the end result). Additionally, what better way can one think of for God to feel the joy in our choosing Him than for it to be a surprise.

Darth_Bill · 01-10-2006, 10:56 AM

Very thorny issue.

If God has foreknowledge of everything, then he is creating individuals that will do nothing but suffer on earth or in hell. (Unless you don't quite have that creating issue in that we always were and God allows us to act.)

However, this also blows a lot of peoples views about the fall out of the water. I mean, if he knew Adam would eat the fruit, then he is responsible for all this. (unless your view is that it was necessary.)

There are pitfalls and issues with both views.

To think that God is surprised. In a pure "surprised" level, no. I don't think there is much new under the sun. I think he's been around long enough and had enough experience to know what is possible.

I also don't believe in predestination. That puts an aweful lot of pain and suffering right on his doorstop. I do believe in fore-ordination. I think the prophets were so called, as he knew them before they were born, and knew their personalities. I think the same applies to us but perhaps on not such a grand level.

User Name: · 01-11-2006, 05:57 AM

how wcould God ever be suprised if He nkows all?knowing me i;d better stay out of debates thoug!

Raechel · 01-11-2006, 06:26 AM

Hey user name, don't hold back, sounds like fun

User Name: · 01-11-2006, 06:29 AM

sounds scary to me

plus i nevr win debates so theres no point

Raechel · 01-11-2006, 07:10 AM

it's not all about winning user name, it's just throwing out your opinion. Don't let anyone bully you

User Name: · 01-11-2006, 06:53 PM

bully me ha ha ha.no that won;t happen trurst me!

theredpill · 01-11-2006, 10:27 PM

Michael_legna....i like the way you think my man. I also appreciate the other posts....but Michael intuited the same thoughts i have had about God's all power, which is: What God CAN know, and what He chooses to know for the purpose of allowing free will to exist are two separate things.

I have come to what for me is a 'conclusion in progress', that God, in ORDER to allow free will to exist, has in fact LIMITED his own power out of his own choice. Obviously im putting a human spin on that concept, i have no other recourse....but for all practical purposes i think God limits the scope of his foreknowledge to make an allowance for our free will, to the extent we can experience it.

I think God does this in other ways, as he did with Moses when he showed Moses his back. Moses couldnt bear the full glory of God, so God veiled it with regard to Moses. Sometimes God withholds his power with regard to us, meaning that as far as God is concerned nothing has changed, but in other instances i contend that God limits his own power in a way that actually affects him in particular.

I think of it this way....God COULD be everywhere, i mean, he COULD envelope the totality of the universe, from subatomic particles to the outerlimits of the universe.....but DOES HE? I dont think so.....for the bible is illustrative of the idea that God is not part of or party to anything that is sinful. Thus in any specific time and place where sin takes place God is not there, for as it says 'light has no fellowship with darkness'. That being the case, its not that God is incapable of being in the same time and place as sin, but if he forced his presence that which is sinful would be obliterated. Thus, being sinful humans...God chooses to limit his presense for the sake of our continuing existence and opportunity to change our ways and bring ourselves into alignment with him.

One other thing that i have thought about is, why are christians so apparently bothered by the idea that God isnt all powerful in everyway? Is God only worth worshipping if he can do anything and everything he wants to? Obviously God IS limited, as he cannot sin, one could say thats a limitation, as well as whatever limitations he places on himself with regard to us. One could also say that God withholding himself isnt a limitation at all, and in a sense its not, for God certainly COULD do anything he wanted to, but he doesnt.....i dont know what you could call that...grace perhaps, im sure there are at least a few words.....but naturally they all fall short of explaining or describing just what that quality is.

Lots of departure points for thought in this topic......thank you all for participating.

01-10-2006, 06:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
theredpill Occasional Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: all over Posts: 2	Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) I've been fascinated by the never-ending debate among many regarding the issue of predestination and God's omni qualities of power, presence, and knowledge. So keeping that familiar debate in mind, the question i have is....can God ever be surprised? By way of a caveat i should say that i am no master logician (i wish i was), so i can only self reference to a large degree of what SEEMS logical and reasonable to me. This is my thesis: I contend that complete knowledge of everything, both what has been, what is, and what will be, by virtue of its totality of knowledge, excludes the capability of being surprised by anything. Secondly i contend that 'surprise', as a momentary condition with which we as humans are all very familiar, is a necessary component and requisite quality in making a Being capable enjoying the fruit of another beings 'freedom of choice'. Third i contend that God could not fully enjoy our alleged 'freedom of choice' to serve Him if all the while He knows that we either would or would not, owing to the plausible argument in my view that, God having already known what a person would choose cannot possibly be surprised that the individual would choose him, thereby removing any quality of surprise or delight, which i argue cannot coexist with all-knowledge. I apologize if i havent framed my thesis in the most cogent and concise fashion. I will seek to illustrate each point of my thesis by way of illustrations, analogies and comparisons. Point 1. It occurs to me that surprise, which i cannot help but see as invariably related to 'delight', is a by product of not knowing everything. Also that if one does know everything, their ability to be delighted in the sense of being surprised or pleasantly caught off guard, cannot exist. For example. Say as a parent you give your young child a piece of paper and some crayons, they want to draw you a picture. You are in the kitchen or doing some housework when after some time has passed your child brings you a beautiful drawing or coloring. You notice how fine a picture it is and delight in their creation. You also could very well be surprised at what the picture consists of, because you didnt see what they were drawing while the work was in progress. Now, lets say that instead of waiting till the picture was done, you checked in on your child from time to time, and then were able to see the work in progress, thus divesting the drawing of any mystery, since you had seen what it was shaping up to be. Then when the drawing is finished your child brings it to you, and you FEIGN surprise, or you do not, your choice....but all the same you can still legitimately DELIGHT in the beauty of the drawing, since one does not need to be surprised in order to delight in something. But, can anyone genuinely say that they would prefer to be WITHOUT that quality of surprise if they could choose? Recall the moments in your life when someone you cared for deeply came from 'left field' and did something totally unexpected and wonderful for you, remember how your heart and soul leapt within you and thrilled with the revelation that someone had been plotting of ways to please you, while keeping it a secret until the unveiling. How different that experience would be if all the while you knew exactly what they were up to. In what condition would you prefer to enjoy that experience? Point 2 and 3. Many Christians say the reason why God created beings with 'freedom of choice' is that he wanted to know that if his creatures loved him it would be because they CHOSE to do so. That argument implies that God wouldnt derive the same kind of enjoyment from the love of his creatures if it had been 'programmed' into them. In my view this implies quite heavily that the 'freedom of choice' or 'free will' contains within its nature or makeup an 'x factor' if you please...or rather a quality of uncertainty, at least as far as the creature is concerned. But, as far as God is concerned, if he already knows whether or not a creature will choose to love him, does that not affect the quality of delight he is capable of experiencing? In other words....if you are courting a person of interest....and you love them, and you hope that they will reciprocate that love......if they finally do tell you they feel the same, there is rejoicing in the fact that they CHOSE to love you. If however you already knew when you met someone that they would either choose or not choose to love you, would there be any incentive at all in trying to WIN their love? You after all would already know what they were going to choose and it would be a complete waste of time in trying to convince them otherwise, at least as far as their choice is concerned. If there were other associated qualities of this experience that needed illustration thats another matter altogether, and ill get to that. Ok, well, forgive my very flawed and imperfect verbalization of a theological quandary in which many are caught. Frankly, many people cannot imagine true 'free will' coexisting with Gods foreknowledge. Many apologists suggest that Gods foreknowledge doesnt keep us from choosing, it only means that he knows what we will choose. Try to wrap your mind around that. Well, in part i can agree with that, owing to the fact that no matter how truly free we are to do whatever we wish....there are not in fact infinite choices available to us. This is all i have for now, i have other thoughts, but ive already made this longer than i intended....and as well, this was written extemporaneously which may explain its disarray..i beg your indulgence and any comments, thank you

01-10-2006, 08:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
Don Established Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Manassas, VA, USA Posts: 6,053	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) I do not think God is surprised. Don __________________ Don, a charismatic Biblical egalitarian studying Hebrew roots of Christianity and 1st century context of the Bible. My growth work: my lack of trust due to fear and that love is more important than being right.

01-10-2006, 08:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
michael_legna Established Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 6,922	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) What we have to add to these considerations is the following issue: If God knows we are going to choose Him (because of His infinite foreknowledge) and we thus have limited choices within the scope of our free will, does that imply (as it seems to) that the love we feel for Him is also not freely given? The point being is - does such a thing as unfree love exist? Does it make any sense at all to speak of loving someone (in this case God) if we have no choice in the matter? This is a knotty subject and I have no simple answers but I believe we love or do not love God freely, and thus it means that each of us could or could not, in the end, choose God or reject Him and if that means He is surprised and that somehow our freewill has limited His infinite foreknowledge then so be it. Any other approach is just a sham relationship and no love exists within it. To look at it another way - what a wonderful gift (if we see free will as a gift) for God to choose to limit His own power (by choosing not to know the end result). Additionally, what better way can one think of for God to feel the joy in our choosing Him than for it to be a surprise. __________________ 2Co 3:6-8 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, ... 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

01-10-2006, 10:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
Darth_Bill Established Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,664	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) Very thorny issue. If God has foreknowledge of everything, then he is creating individuals that will do nothing but suffer on earth or in hell. (Unless you don't quite have that creating issue in that we always were and God allows us to act.) However, this also blows a lot of peoples views about the fall out of the water. I mean, if he knew Adam would eat the fruit, then he is responsible for all this. (unless your view is that it was necessary.) There are pitfalls and issues with both views. To think that God is surprised. In a pure "surprised" level, no. I don't think there is much new under the sun. I think he's been around long enough and had enough experience to know what is possible. I also don't believe in predestination. That puts an aweful lot of pain and suffering right on his doorstop. I do believe in fore-ordination. I think the prophets were so called, as he knew them before they were born, and knew their personalities. I think the same applies to us but perhaps on not such a grand level. __________________ The OFFICIAL site of Darth Bill "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein. All Hail the Hypnotoad!

01-11-2006, 05:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
User Name: Occasional Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 37	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) how wcould God ever be suprised if He nkows all?knowing me i;d better stay out of debates thoug!

01-11-2006, 06:26 AM	#6 (permalink)
Raechel Occasional Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 25	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) Hey user name, don't hold back, sounds like fun

01-11-2006, 06:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
User Name: Occasional Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 37	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) sounds scary to me plus i nevr win debates so theres no point

01-11-2006, 07:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
Raechel Occasional Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 25	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) it's not all about winning user name, it's just throwing out your opinion. Don't let anyone bully you

01-11-2006, 06:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
User Name: Occasional Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Illinois Posts: 37	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) bully me ha ha ha.no that won;t happen trurst me!

01-11-2006, 10:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
theredpill Occasional Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: all over Posts: 2	Re: Is God Ever Surprised? Part 1 (predestination) Michael_legna....i like the way you think my man. I also appreciate the other posts....but Michael intuited the same thoughts i have had about God's all power, which is: What God CAN know, and what He chooses to know for the purpose of allowing free will to exist are two separate things. I have come to what for me is a 'conclusion in progress', that God, in ORDER to allow free will to exist, has in fact LIMITED his own power out of his own choice. Obviously im putting a human spin on that concept, i have no other recourse....but for all practical purposes i think God limits the scope of his foreknowledge to make an allowance for our free will, to the extent we can experience it. I think God does this in other ways, as he did with Moses when he showed Moses his back. Moses couldnt bear the full glory of God, so God veiled it with regard to Moses. Sometimes God withholds his power with regard to us, meaning that as far as God is concerned nothing has changed, but in other instances i contend that God limits his own power in a way that actually affects him in particular. I think of it this way....God COULD be everywhere, i mean, he COULD envelope the totality of the universe, from subatomic particles to the outerlimits of the universe.....but DOES HE? I dont think so.....for the bible is illustrative of the idea that God is not part of or party to anything that is sinful. Thus in any specific time and place where sin takes place God is not there, for as it says 'light has no fellowship with darkness'. That being the case, its not that God is incapable of being in the same time and place as sin, but if he forced his presence that which is sinful would be obliterated. Thus, being sinful humans...God chooses to limit his presense for the sake of our continuing existence and opportunity to change our ways and bring ourselves into alignment with him. One other thing that i have thought about is, why are christians so apparently bothered by the idea that God isnt all powerful in everyway? Is God only worth worshipping if he can do anything and everything he wants to? Obviously God IS limited, as he cannot sin, one could say thats a limitation, as well as whatever limitations he places on himself with regard to us. One could also say that God withholding himself isnt a limitation at all, and in a sense its not, for God certainly COULD do anything he wanted to, but he doesnt.....i dont know what you could call that...grace perhaps, im sure there are at least a few words.....but naturally they all fall short of explaining or describing just what that quality is. Lots of departure points for thought in this topic......thank you all for participating.