Praying to Mary: Why Pray To Dead People?

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by Darth_Bill

Originally Posted by Darth_Bill

Not when it comes to idolotry and polytheism. Only the head god is changed.

That's what I mean - changing the "head" God is a big difference!!!!

[eugenia]

ML, looking around a bit, it seems you have answered most of this stuff before. Are they just looking for a fight? Anyway, as one who asks for the intercessions of the Saints, and definitely of the Theotokos, I thought I would just throw in a few quotes from an article I found. The entire article is here: What We Believe About the Saints and the Theotokos

IN HONORING THE SAINTS we celebrate God's accomplished work of salvation. Archbishop Paul of Finland writes, “In glorifying the saints' spiritual struggle and victory, the Church is in fact glorifying God's work of salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit; it experiences the salvation already accomplished in them, the goal towards which the members of the Church militant are still pressing on (Phil. 3:12,14).” Thus, by remembering the saints we celebrate what the Holy Spirit has done in their lives.
How greatly God honors our nature through the saints. Father John of Kronstadt, a saintly Russian priest, emphasized this when he wrote:
“How the Creator and Provider of all has honoured and adorned our nature! The saints shine with His light, they are hallowed by His grace, having conquered sin and washed away every impurity of body and spirit; they are glorious with His glory, they are incorruptible through His incorruption. Glory to God, Who has so honoured, enlightened, and exalted our nature.”
The saints show us what a glorious destiny we have in God. Through the glorious example of their lives, they point the way to our becoming “partakers of divine nature.”
LET US SHARE SOME INSPIRING definitions of sainthood. A saint is one who makes God's goodness attractive. Saints are forgiven sinners living out their lives in the forgiveness God has given them. Saints are people who make it easier for others to believe in God.
A little girl said once as she looked at a saint portrayed in a stained glass window: “A saint is a Christian who lets God's light shine through.”
St. Symeon the New Theologian says that the reason vigil lights are placed before the icons of the saints is to show that without the Light, Who is Christ, the Saints are nothing. It is only as the light of Christ shines on them that they become alive and resplendent.
A saint is one who is constantly conscious of being a sinner and rarely, if ever, conscious of being a saint. In fact, it has been said that there are two kinds of people in the world: sinners who think they are saints, and saints who know they are sinners. The most outstanding personalities in Orthodox spirituality, those who saw the light of God, never said they had reached that high level of spirituality. The people around them detected it from the distinct radiance they generated.
Saints are the most convincing answer to atheism and agnosticism. A saint is someone who shows us what the Christian life is really all about. A saint is a sinner who keeps trying. Francis R. Line wrote these words entitled “A Saint?”:
"What made Francis a saint?
It was simple.
Love of God and love of neighbors —
That was all.
He lived the two great commandments.
He really loved.
He loved God .
With all his heart,
With all his mind,
With all his soul,
With all his strength.
As for his neighbors
He gave his whole life to them
In loving word and deed and service.
It is simple, being a saint.
There are only two rules.
It is simple
But it isn't easy.”
Saints are people who have consecrated themselves wholly to strive to express in their daily lives the love of God as revealed in Jesus.
ST. PAUL WROTE to the Romans: “To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints ...” (Romans 1:7). To the Corinthians he wrote: “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints” (1 Cor. 1:2). When Paul was writing to the Christians in Rome and' Corinth, reminding them they are “called to be saints,” he was not writing to people likely to figure in stained-glass windows, but to a motley collection of shop-keepers, minor civil servants, converted prostitutes, prizefighters and slaves. These were the people he called God's “holy ones” — called to be like Christ their Lord, agents and instruments of His continuing work in the world. These were the saints.” And so, by God's grace, are we.
Every Christian is called to perfection and is capable of revealing the image of God hidden in him. But only a few become so transfigured through the Holy Spirit during their earthly life that they can be recognized as saints by other Christians and officially canonized as such by the Church. This should not draw our attention away from the fact that every baptized Christian is called to be a saint. In the New Testament the saints were not a spiritual elite but the whole body of Christians. That never meant that all Christians were regarded as having reached a sinless perfection. In that sense there are no saints in the New Testament, for even the best of Christians are far from perfect. The only saints the New Testament knows are forgiven sinners who are always ready to place their utter dependence on God's mercy and grace.
Thus, there are the Saints, with a capital “S,” those officially recognized and canonized by the Church, and there are the saints with a small “s,” who are the whole body of Christians-you and I included. We, too, are called to be men and women in whom others can in some way meet the living Christ. We can appreciate our call to be saints when we realize that saints become saints not so much because of the unusual things they do but rather because of the unusual degree to which they give themselves to Christ. By our daily faithfulness to Christ, each of us is a saint in the making. Made in the image of God and baptized in the Trinity, every Christian has the potential of sainthood.
ST. PAUL WROTE to the Ephesians: “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God. . .” (Eph. 2:19). Every Christian has status. He or she belongs. We are fellow citizens with the Saints and members of the household of God! Christians should be taught from infancy to have the right kind of family pride: the kind that makes us want to live up to the family standard. The Head of our family is Christ Himself. Some of our brothers and sisters are the Virgin Mary (Theotokos), John the Baptist, the Apostles, St. Basil, St. Chrysostom and countless others. We belong to them, and they to us. It is a distinguished family tree.
A Christian does not walk alone as if sealed in a space capsule. We are members of God's family. As such, we must help and be helped by others. Orthodox Christianity does not espouse a narrowly individualistic “God-and-me” relationship. The Church is a family, God's family, in which we are concerned for one another. In the words of St. Paul: “If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together” (1 Cor. 12:26).
The late Fr. George Florovsky, eminent Orthodox theologian, wrote: “The final purpose of the Incarnation was that the Incarnate should have a 'body', which is the Church ... Christ is never alone. He is always the Head of His Body. In Orthodox theology and devotion alike, Christ is never separated from His Mother, and His 'friends', the Saints. The Redeemer and the redeemed belong together inseparably. In the daring phrase of St. John Chrysostom (inspired by Ephesians 1:23), Christ will be complete only when His Body, the Church, has been completed.”
Speaking on the concept of the Church as the family and household of God, Nicolas Zernov wrote: “The Orthodox... regard the saints... as teachers and friends who pray with them and assist them in their spiritual ascent. Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry was surrounded by disciples who did not prevent others from meeting Him, but on the contrary helped newcomers to find the Master. In the same manner fellowship with the saints facilitates communion with God, for their Christ-like character brings others nearer to the divine source of light and life.”

Sorry, it's a bit cut 'n pastey, but I think you get the gist, and if not...read the article.

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by eugenia

ML, looking around a bit, it seems you have answered most of this stuff before. Are they just looking for a fight?

No, it is just that there are new people on the forum all the time and if you get involved in Internet apologetics you have to be ready to answer the same questions over and over again to reach those who were not around to hear the answers previously. It may seem tiresome to those answering the questions, but we always have to realize this is often new and fresh information to those who are hearing it for the first time, and so we have to be careful not to lose our enthusiasm for the topic.

Originally Posted by eugenia

Anyway, as one who asks for the intercessions of the Saints, and definitely of the Theotokos, I thought I would just throw in a few quotes from an article I found.

Thanks for the link and the article it is very informative, helps to dispel many of the misunderstandings those outside the Catholic or Orthodox Church have about this issue.

[eugenia]

No, it is just that there are new people on the forum all the time and if you get involved in Internet apologetics you have to be ready to answer the same questions over and over again to reach those who were not around to hear the answers previously. It may seem tiresome to those answering the questions, but we always have to realize this is often new and fresh information to those who are hearing it for the first time, and so we have to be careful not to lose our enthusiasm for the topic.

I will try to be more patient!

[Chelle]

Yeah, I'd noticed that the thread is kinda aged.

[michael_legna]

Originally Posted by Chelle

Yeah, I'd noticed that the thread is kinda aged.

Is that crack directed at me?

I will have you young whipper snappers know that 52 is not that old.

[Chelle]

Originally Posted by michael_legna

Is that crack directed at me?

I will have you young whipper snappers know that 52 is not that old.

Oh, reaaaaally now...........what ever you say!
Just jokin whicha Michael!

[Symeon]

Originally Posted by Elisheva

I hope you don't think it's ok to call the pope "father" or to kiss his ring. We are to call no man father except our heavenly Father. If you kiss the pope's ring you are bowing down to him. He wears the number of the Anti-Christ (666)

Elisheva, Elisheva, Elisheva,

It looks to me like the Protestant roots of your group's theology are showing.

In that passage in Matthew 23, Jesus was warning us of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who lorded it over other Jews. Did leaders in later generations of Christians "lord it over" their followers? Alas, yes. But the "lording it over" that happens among Christians today is hardly restricted to the Catholics ... and they are hardly the worst offenders.

I should also point out that different parts of the world show respect in different ways. Bowing and kissing someone's hand are very unusual here in the U.S.; but they are traditional forms of respect for Important People in other parts of the world. And immigrants tend to bring their customs with them. That's how we got the custom of setting up Christmas trees -- from German immigrants in the 1800s -- and that's how New York City got the St Patrick's Day parade.

As for the part where you said "Somebody sold you a pack of lies" ... it's the practice here for people not to speak authoritatively about Christian groups they don't belong to.

I should not speak authoritatively about your group, because I'm not in your group. So, if you want to raise doubts about that point about Catholic belief ... I seriously suggest that it would be best to raise it as a question to the Catholics hereabouts.